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 French Guns
 Other French Makers
 Robust
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Geoffroy
Moderator

USA
750 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2008 :  22:09:34  Show Profile  Visit Geoffroy's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Introduced in 1912 or 1913 by the Manufacture d'Armes et Cycles de St Etienne ( Manufrance ), grade 1 to 11, 10 and 11 with ejectors
Here the N0 7 sold recently:









darnation

Kappax
New Member

USA
20 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2008 :  23:34:24  Show Profile  Visit Kappax's Homepage  Reply with Quote
What to shoot in your old french guns ? As we can read on the flat of this robust:
The proof charge was 2.93 grammes of T powder with 30 grammes lead shot. The "normal" or regular cartridge expected to be used was 1.70 T powder with 28 grammes of lead shot.
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wabbaseka1
New Member

USA
3 Posts

Posted - Jan 22 2008 :  22:14:45  Show Profile  Visit wabbaseka1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
please explain the type of shell this gun can shoot in layman terms.
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Geoffroy
Moderator

USA
750 Posts

Posted - Jan 22 2008 :  23:25:08  Show Profile  Visit Geoffroy's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Good remark.I will but I need to do some homework about reloading with modern powder...


darnation

Type of shell, 65mm chamber is 2 9/16 or more commonly available 2 1/2 shell . Pressure should be clse to 6500 psi

Edited by - Geoffroy on Feb 05 2008 02:55:25
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PeteM
Member

USA
127 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2008 :  07:48:59  Show Profile  Visit PeteM's Homepage  Reply with Quote
This may be helpful. Both France and Belgium were members of the Brussels Convention. In 1912 the Brussels Convention set a minimum proof of 12,000 psi for Nitro proof. Only T Powder could reliably meet this standard. The proof and service loads did not change in France until 1928. In France, in 1901 ordinary proof was rated at 14,200 ps, double proof at 20,500 psi and triple proof at 27,000 psi. These are not service loads! Later, 1928, the proof loads were actually decreased in pressure.





Pete

Edited by - PeteM on Jan 23 2008 07:52:49
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cornetdechasse
Member

142 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2008 :  21:12:23  Show Profile  Visit cornetdechasse's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Howdy Guys,
Have you noticed that pressure goes up while gauge / size decreases!
As you all know our Gauge system is really archaic and based blackpowder and ball smootbore rifles / muskets, or whatever you wanna call them. What happened to Carter and his Metric system, he suggested to introduce in High Schools, ages ago. Oh yah, we shooters are kind of a conservative bunch when it relates to hammer guns, doubles and single shot rifles. Smile guys!
One can take the mule to the creek, but there EVERYTHING stops. CdC.
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PeteM
Member

USA
127 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2008 :  22:41:28  Show Profile  Visit PeteM's Homepage  Reply with Quote
CdC,

Every one asks about the proof pressure. These guns were never intended to be shot at those pressures day in and day out. For older guns, even the expected service load can be too high when considering that the gun is 75, 100 or more years old.

In the famous Winchester Model 21 Proof Test, the Ithaca NID failed after 56 proof loads, the Fox Sterlingworth after 80. Of course the point was the over designed Model 21 digested 2000 proof loads. There were no actual catastrophic failures - rather, a failure was when the gun would not function correctly. However, the Model 21 stock failed after the 1st 15 rounds. They kept shooting proof loads in this gun. The point of the test was mechanical failure. Winchester already knew that the proof loads would not blow the barrels of the Ithaca or Fox. How you do not consider the failure of the stock to be a mechanical failure of the gun is a bit beyond me.

So, even in a new gun, there is more to be concerned about than just the barrels blowing. The constant pounding on the stock will eventually cause problems. You are correct. We use a stupid and confusing system because of tradition.


Pete

Edited by - PeteM on Jan 23 2008 22:43:37
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Geoffroy
Moderator

USA
750 Posts

Posted - Feb 04 2008 :  22:57:27  Show Profile  Visit Geoffroy's Homepage  Reply with Quote

About the Robust, model's numbers and more:
Robust,born in 1912 or 1913, numerotation 1913-1924 1 to 11, ejector 10 & 11 ;
1924-1930 No 26 to 36.
1931 double numerotation. The first model was 20/202, then 22/208,24/214, 26/220, 30/226, 32/232, 26/238, 30/244, 32/250, 34/256, 36/262, 7/268 and models "supra and ejectors.
The society " Manufrance Modele or Manumodele was born in 1924 to sale to the gundealers since Manufrance was a mail order company selling directly to the customer.
Manumodele called the Robust the Costo and the Ideal the Super.
If you have a Costo, it is the same gun than the Robust but sold by the Manumodele to the gundealer instead to be a Robust-"mailoredered" from Manufrance. Same gun different marketing.
( I hope there is no mistake in all these numbers )

darnation
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cornetdechasse
Member

142 Posts

Posted - Feb 05 2008 :  00:21:20  Show Profile  Visit cornetdechasse's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Well my friend PeteM,
a failure while testing - destructive or other - happens any time when something results in effecting the tool (gun) starting from the moment a risk of malfunction -whatever that may be - is noticebly or undetected and reaching a "tresh hold!" -whatever that may be.

Just a broken stock, a severe crack in it, renders the whole gun into a state that it could endanger the user, when fired. Getting a piece of wood, a big splinter, recoiled into your cheek or pounded under one's colar bone, is not a pleasant experience -that could potentially happen-, without any damaging effect to "lock,..& barrel The line between safe and unsafe, is very thin and nothing more than "a line!", often invisible for the naked eye.

What were you trying to tell me, Pete? CdC.
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Robert Chambers
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456 Posts

Posted - Feb 05 2008 :  10:49:39  Show Profile  Visit Robert Chambers's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The gun posted above doesn't show any locking lugs that extend below the action flats. Again, that lock-up system indicates that Manufrance used the Verney Carron patented systen of 1924 (FR577296).




What is unclear to me is whether Verney Carron licensed the patent to Manufrance or if Manufrance didn't begin production until after the patent expired (lasting 8 years maybe?). This system that is also being discussed in the Helice thread, as the Helice system is clearly associated with Verney Carron.




This photo is of James-I's MAS and they too used this ingenious lock-up system. This raises a host of new questions. Did Verney Carron also license the patent to MAS?..... Did Manufrance sell the receiver forgings to MAS? Did Verney Carron sell receiver forgings to both Manufrance and MAS? Where any of them connected to each other in business? .....or...Where they all independent from each other and MAS & Manufrance simply used the system after the patent became public domain?

Edited by - Robert Chambers on Feb 05 2008 10:51:44
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Geoffroy
Moderator

USA
750 Posts

Posted - Feb 05 2008 :  17:25:19  Show Profile  Visit Geoffroy's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Robust , 1964 Manufrance Catalog:




darnation
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JayCee
Junior Member

33 Posts

Posted - Feb 16 2008 :  11:44:02  Show Profile  Visit JayCee's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thought I'd share two of my friend Jani's Robusts:



Robust-Ideal



JC
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Geoffroy
Moderator

USA
750 Posts

Posted - Feb 19 2008 :  12:33:42  Show Profile  Visit Geoffroy's Homepage  Reply with Quote
See new topic Robust-Ideal

darnation
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